Transcript of Ncube interview on BBC Hardtalk

The leader of the smaller MDC faction, Welshman Ncube (also Industry and Commerce Minister) was a guest on the BBC HARDtalk programme which aired on Tuesday. Below is the transcript of the interview with host Zeinab Badawi.

Zeinab Badawi: Have opposition politicians in Zimbabwe learnt the lessons of the violence and disputed elections of 2008 in which Robert Mugabe and his party Zanu PF outmanoeuvred the Movement for Democratic Change and held on to power?

The MDC has since been in an uneasy power sharing government in which its main leader Morgan Tsvangirai is Prime Minister, but a breakaway MDC faction led by the Industry and Commerce Minister Welshman Ncube is splintering the opposition ahead of elections due by next June.

My guest today on HARDtalk is Welshman Ncube. Shouldn’t the opposition be united to better oppose Zanu PF? Welshman Ncube welcome to HARDtalk.

Welshman Ncube: Thank you.

Badawi: It’s a general rule in politics isn’t it not just in Zimbabwe: weaken the opposition by splitting it. That’s what you’ve done.

Ncube: Well, it is of course correct that if the parties that are opposed to Zanu PF it would be that much easier to win the elections than when we are all fighting from our different corners. But there are things which are fundamental and matters of principle, matters of policy that divide us and have made that very, very difficult.

Badawi: And is that much more important in your view to you than forming a credible opposition to Zanu PF?

Ncube: Well, what is important is that when we oppose Zanu PF and when we seek to remove Zanu PF we must all be clear and united in that the alternative government we want to establish will in fact, not just in deeds, will in fact be different from the Zanu PF government either by reference to corruption, by reference to mismanagement, by reference to non-violence – all of those things.

So when the things which divide us make some of us doubt that that government will be different from Zanu PF, that is why it is so important that we must be opposed to Zanu PF in both words and in deeds. There is no point in removing Zanu PF only to replace it with exactly the same entity.

Badawi: Are you equating Morgan Tsvangirai, the Prime Minister, with President Robert Mugabe who has been in power for 32 years?

Ncube: I’m not equating anyone. I’m simply saying those things that divide us go to the heart of our opposition to Zanu PF. When we say we must be non-violent we must mean it and we must live it. So when our colleagues practise violence against others and also against themselves we say, eh [interrupted].

Badawi: So which colleagues are you talking about here because you are being a little bit indirect. Just spell it out for us. Are you accusing the MDC faction led by Prime Minister Morgan Tsvangirai of waging some kind of campaign against your faction?

Ncube: No. I’m saying the things which divide us, the things which divided us at the time of the split are essentially to do with the things I’m talking about. If we begin to act violently against each other and against ourselves; if we begin to defy collective decisions that we would have made; if during for instance the currency of the inclusive government we have local government structures which act as corruptly as Zanu PF has done over the last 32 years, those are the things which divide us, and they are genuine differences.

Badawi: Let me just fill people in of course that the MDC split back in 2005 when Morgan Tsvangirai didn’t want to contest the [senate] elections. I’m not going to go into the ins and outs of it but there was a breakaway faction led by Arthur Mutambara but you now lead that breakaway faction.

I want to ask you very, very clearly, and I would like a clear answer, should the MDC not just remain united under the Prime Minister Morgan Tsvangirai who after all is highly acclaimed in international circles. Very simple question, what’s you answer?

Ncube: Well, the answer is simple. The things that divide us now make it impossible for us to work together.

Badawi: What have you got against Morgan Tsvangirai?

Ncube: Absolutely nothing against the person of Morgan Tsvangirai. Our differences are about our political behaviours and the things we do as politicians. I keep underlining, it is on record that our colleagues in the MDC-T often practise violence; it is on record that Morgan Tsvangirai himself has reversed collectively made decisions and it is also on record that the local government structures that they control have acted as corruptly if not more corruptly than the Zanu PF ones. Those are the things which divide us.

Badawi: You refer to MDC-T which stands for the faction led by MDC Morgan Tsvangirai. But what you say is clearly at odds with what the international community believes. For example the French government has this summer conferred on Morgan Tsvangirai the Legion of Honour, the highest order it can because it says he upholds universal aspirations, morals and the spirit of progress.

The Australian Prime Minister Julia Gillard has said he is like Nelson Mandela, like Aung San Suu Kyi– a remarkable figure of our times, she has said.

The former American ambassador in Zimbabwe Christopher Dell has described Morgan Tsvangirai as brave, committed, by and large a democrat. He is also the only player on the scene right now with real star quality and the ability to rally the masses. I reel off all that, minister, because it is at odds with what you say.

Ncube: Well, I’m a Zimbabwean, I live in Zimbabwe. I worked within the united MDC, I worked outside the united MDC and I can tell you the things on which we differ are fundamental, they go to the very heart of the struggle against Zanu PF. I repeat, we don’t want to replace Zanu PF in name, and not also in terms of the things it does.

Badawi: You’ve made that point, but just address the fact that there is lavish praise heaped upon Morgan Tsvangirai by various international figures and it doesn’t really… it’s not consistent with the kind of picture you are now portraying of the MDC faction led by Morgan Tsvangirai. So just explain that to us.

Ncube: All I can say is that those who might be somewhere in Australia, those who might be in Paris, in Washington are entitled to have their opinions about any of the leaders in Zimbabwe, just as much as we are entitled as Zimbabweans to have our own opinions about ourselves and our leaders. And respectfully [interrupted].

Badawi: Christopher Dell, the former American ambassador, highly regarded, spent many years in Zimbabwe and what I quoted was what he said in WikiLeaks which were revealed in 2010. But you know what he said about you, you know what he said about you?

Ncube: I’ve read about what he said about me, but the point [interrupted].

Badawi: Let me remind you, let me remind you, well let me remind you.

Ncube: Go ahead.

Badawi: He described you, if I may, as highly divisive and says you should be taken off the political stage.

Ncube: Yes, and what’s the question around that?

Badawi: So what do you answer to that quote ‘highly divisive and should be taken off the political stage’?

Ncube: Well, again that is Dell’s opinion, as democrats we respect it but we disagree with it. I don’t know what it means when an ambassador of one of the biggest democracies in the world speaks of taking leaders off the political stage, I don’t know what that’s supposed to mean. And I think it is unfortunate and it cannot be consistent with the values and principles the United States wants to defend around the world.

Badawi: When we look at the Global Political Agreement, the GPA, which came into force after those elections in 2008, disputed, and we saw what the French called “cohabitation” whereby the MDC joined the government under President Robert Mugabe. But you are stating quite clearly that that has been a failure, not only because of the difficulties with Robert Mugabe, but within the MDC itself, it’s been a failure.

Ncube: Well, the inclusive government has not been a total failure, but it could have done better. In terms of political reforms clearly, clearly we have failed. We have not done the things that we should have done by now, we should have created the necessary conditions for free and fair elections, that has not happened. There are many parts of the GPA on media reforms, on provincial governors that we have not implemented.

However, in terms of where Zimbabwe was in 2008 or beginning of 2009 in economic terms we have made a lot of progress. We have a country which was virtually on the verge of collapse if not completely collapsed, that economy we have managed to resuscitate it, it’s now working. Yes it could do better, and yes people are still poor but you don’t have an economy which is basically on its knees anymore, it’s an economy which its way to recovery. Whether or not it recovers now depends on what happens at the next election.

Badawi: Alright. I will just [inaudible] economy since you have raised it. You have a $400 million budget deficit, and growth has now been downgraded from more than 9 percent, which was admittedly very high, down to 5.6 percent. Even though progress has been made, and let’s face it that was from a very low base, things are going backwards now.

Ncube: Yes of course some of the gains that we have made over the last three years are threatened now with reversal, in particular as we move towards an election and as we begin to grandstand around election rhetoric.

In terms of the economy as minister of industry for instance, industry recovered from capacity utilisation of 10 percent when we came in to 57 percent by the end of last year. It sort of plateaued, it’s not going anywhere now largely because of our failure to stabilise the political environment so as to bring in confidence to have access to lines of credit.

That has not happened. So we are beginning to see reversal yes, but we need to move as quickly as we can… to continue with the recovery which we have started.

Badawi: It’s not just political instability because people don’t know when the elections are going to be happening and so on but it’s also because of the so-called indigenisation policy that came into effect in Zimbabwe in 2011 whereby foreign companies have got to hand over 51 percent of their controlling share to local companies and that has scared a lot of foreign investors, frankly?

Ncube: Well, that’s absolutely true. As minister responsible for trade I spend a lot of my time talking to investors, talking to business leaders in and outside Zimbabwe and there is no doubt that the elephant in the living room is our indigenisation laws. Clearly, clearly a lot of investors are unhappy with them and find it difficult to come and invest in Zimbabwe.

Whereas we all agree that we must do some form of empowerment, the manner in which we are doing it and the thresholds that we have set are clearly unrealistic and unreasonable in our circumstances.

Badawi: So when you talk about some form of empowerment the idea is that you indigenise these interests so that the whole Zimbabwean population can benefit from it. What’s the evidence then that any benefits will trickle down to the ordinary Zimbabwean, because there isn’t plenty of that, is there? Not much evidence of that.

Ncube: I personally don’t like the word indigenisation because I don’t think it has any precise meaning. I prefer the term empowerment. Empowerment is broader and perhaps more accurate in terms of what some of us would want to achieve.

If we are talking about empowerment, we should be talking about encouraging investment so that we can create jobs and employment for people, we can create the necessary business environment for indigenous Zimbabweans to form their own businesses to compete with others. Empowerment must not necessarily mean taking over someone else’s business.

Badawi: But have you achieved that? You are the minister for commerce and industry, trade and so on and you look at Zimbabwe and the state of the people, one and half million people on the verge of starvation according to the United Nations World Food Programme, or will need food assistance rather.

Ncube: Zimbabwe is one of the richest countries in Africa, its mineral wealth is second to none, its climate, weather conditions, its land is also among the best in the world in terms of what we can do to our agriculture. If we can fix our politics, and fix our economic policies we will be able to deliver to our people by actually delivering on a stronger economy, on strong and successful businesses. That is the only way to do it.

Badawi: Sure, but if you look at the realities the Minister of Finance Tendai Biti said this year that for instance when he looks at the Marange diamond field he was expecting something like US$600 million to go into the state coffers, from the Marange diamond fields he has only received US$19 million.

He said there were 230,000 [Editor’s note: Biti’s figure was 75,000 ‘ghost workers’, the figure stated is for entire civil service] fictitious government employees who somehow are drawing salaries and that 10,000 new jobs have been created in the past few weeks or so in government.

That’s the reality of Zimbabwe and yet you talk about ‘oh a new business climate’ and that kind of thing, that’s not happening is it?

Ncube: All of what you have just summarised and attributed to the Finance Minister is absolutely correct. If you look at the diamond wealth, the diamonds we are mining, if we were actually administering them and managing them properly we should be getting the sort of money that the Minister of Finance has been mentioning.

We are not doing it, that’s why at the beginning we said the inclusive government has not functioned as we expected to do, there is a complete lack of transparency for instance around Marange diamonds. So all of those things cannot be fixed, in my opinion, unless and until we have free and fair elections and we have a government which is properly elected by people.

Badawi: So you just accepted or you just at least stated that you basically have no power?

Ncube: Well, it is correct that’s why we keep saying there is a parallel government in many respects; that is why the Minister of Finance says there is no authority over Marange and there is no-one who is accountable to him when in fact they are supposed to be accountable to him.

Badawi: So do you have power? Do you have any power as minister of commerce and industry to do what you would like to do to encourage investment, empowerment and all that kind of thing? Do you have power?

Ncube: Yes and no. We have the power and authority to do those things that are within our power, within our mandate as a ministry where we do not need the cooperation of anyone else; we have the power to do those things. But there are things as the ministry of industry where we would require the cooperation of other arms of government and other ministries and clearly therefore we would not have the power.

Badawi: OK, you’re talking about those ministries controlled by Zanu PF perhaps. But let me ask you, you talk about the elections, free and fair elections are vital to bring some kind of stability. But these elections, no date, they should be held by June but you’re all squabbling about what should be in the draft constitution.

Ncube: Correct, we should have the elections, or at least parliament will stand automatically dissolved on June 29 next year. The elections must then be held no later than the end of October next year as an outer limit which is permissible under the current constitution.

Clearly, we had expected to be able to have done the constitution earlier than now, we have not done so [because] there are new disagreements around the constitution and we hope we can overcome those differences with the assistance of SADC [interrupted].

Badawi: OK, just spell those out. You are talking there about the Southern African Development Cooperation who are trying to mediate in all this. But just spell out for us, what are the disagreements? In essence it looks like the MDC are concerned about powers in the constitution for the president being enshrined in the new constitution, and also control over the armed forces and so on. But you’ve also got disagreements about same sex marriage, dual citizenship, that kind of thing. So what are the stumbling blocks?

Ncube: Let me start by saying that firstly, there actually is an agreement. The structures that we had set, what is called the COPAC committee, the constitutional parliamentary committee, has actually agreed on a draft constitution signed by representatives of all the three parties in the inclusive government and formally handed over to the Speaker of Parliament by the co-chairpersons of that parliamentary committee. So there is an agreement, we must underline that.

What is now happening is an attempt by Zanu PF to renege from that agreement by rewriting the agreed draft to include all those things that you have mentioned.

For instance, they are attempting to turn the Bill of Rights into what you may call a declaration of non-rights when in fact it’s supposed to be a declaration of rights; they are going back to try and recreate an imperial presidency; they are re-introducing certain clauses that will undermine the judiciary and so forth and so on. Altogether, there are over 200 amendments that they have attempted to make to an already agreed draft constitution.

Badawi: Alright, so there is a deadlock. Is it worth delaying these elections that you yourself says Zimbabwe so badly needs because of disagreements or inability to put the draft constitution to a referendum?

Ncube: Yes it is worth delaying the elections because there is no point in rushing to an election whose outcome will be disputed and will create another political deadlock which will be with us for a long time. It is better to delay the election whether it’s by five months, six months and then do the elections properly under a constitution which will guarantee our liberties, our freedoms; which will curtail executive power in a manner which protects the citizens.

Badawi: But you know Lovemore Madhuku who runs an NGO, the National Constitutional Assembly – very broad based there is lots of labour, student, women’s groups, churches, human rights organisations – says even if there were a new constitution agreed, he says there is no basis to support this document because it’s being supported by politicians including you obviously. So where are the people in all this?

Ncube: Well, Lovemore, Dr Madhuku or Professor Madhuku, is entitled to his opinion but some of us respectfully disagree [interrupted].

Badawi: Well it’s not just his as I said, he represents quite a wide body of opinion.

Ncube: I think the three political parties in the inclusive government represent a wider body of political opinion in Zimbabwe than any single civil society organisation. But the point I want to make is that the constitution has to have political leadership, there is no constitution anywhere in the world that was ever made by civil society without the political structures, without the elected people participating. I know not, I’m a constitutional lawyer myself.

Badawi: I want to ask you something very important which is, let’s just assume that elections happen and you overcome these problems. One Major General Trust Mugoba was quoted in May 2012 in AllAfrica magazine saying the army would not allow the MDC to take over power if it wins an election because it doesn’t represent the ideology of liberation struggle. So whatever happens you have opposition from the army clearly, what do you say to that?

Ncube: I think of course it is true that the higher levels, the higher echelons of the military have made the statements which capture what you’ve just said. But it is also true that the rank and file in the military does not necessarily come from that school of thought.

But what is important in our case is that both the two formations of the MDC have raised this issue squarely with the facilitator, with SADC, to say there is no point in having an election unless the roadmap to that election includes guarantees and undertakings from the military, and with SADC guarantees as well, that the military will accept the verdict of the people and that they must accept in advance of an election that the sovereignty of Zimbabwe lies in the people and not in the military.

Badawi: Very quickly, a few seconds, if Morgan Tsvangirai says he will not contest elections if Robert Mugabe was the candidate for Zanu PF would you? In a word?

Ncube: Well, look, we cannot determine for other parties who their candidates are. It is up to Zanu PF to field its candidate, all we ask of that candidate is to be bound by the democratic traditions and to accept the will of the people and to refrain from violence.

Badawi: Minister Welshman Ncube, thank you very much indeed for coming on HARDtalk.

Ncube: Thank you.