Minister Mutsekwa on Anglican Church Saga

SW Radio Africa journalist Lance Guma talks to co-Home Affairs Minister Giles Mutsekwa about the saga bedevilling the Anglican Church, after a leaked document exposed brazen police bias for sacked bishop Nolbert Kunonga, whose band of violent supporters have been harassing rival parishioners.

The officer commanding Harare Province issued an order instructing police to ensure that only one church service is conducted, and that should be by the Kunonga faction, despite a court order for both factions to share premises. 

Interview broadcast 01 April 2010 

Lance Guma: Hello Zimbabwe and welcome to this edition of Behind the Headlines. This week we look at the saga bedevilling – pardon the wordplay – the Anglican Church in Zimbabwe. A leaked police document has exposed the brazen police bias for sacked Anglican bishop, Nolbert Kunonga, whose small band of violent supporters have been harassing rival parishioners. 

The background to this – Kunonga was excommunicated after trying to unilaterally withdraw the Harare Diocese from the Central African Province. A fight over property saw the High Court order both factions to share while the matter is still being dealt with. But as with all things Zimbabwean, this was not to be the case. 

On the 26^th of March this year, the Officer commanding Harare Province, known as Superintendent A.M. Nyakurimwa issued an operational order instructing police to ensure that only one church service is conducted by the Kunonga faction. The order goes on to map out the deployment of officers for the operation and instructs police internal and security intelligence officers to be deployed for intelligence gathering in their respective areas of policing. 

Now I’m sure most SW Radio Africa listeners and readers of our web site will have seen copies, the pictures, of this Operational Order – we have posted that on our site – shocking indeed. So what we decided to do on Behind the Headlines is to get the co- Home Affairs minister Giles Mutsekwa and ask him about this Operational Order. This was his reaction: 

Giles Mutsekwa:

Well firstly what I want you and indeed the whole world to understand is that according to the Constitution, police have got the authority to issue Operational Orders that are commensurate with their various positions in the areas of their own responsibility. It doesn’t have to be an issue that they have got to consult the minister. 

So yes, we expect the police to issue Operational Orders from time to time depending on the circumstances surrounding their own areas of jurisdiction, but certain orders obviously are misguiding, certain orders go against principle and certain orders are illegal. It all depends on who is issuing those orders. 

Guma: Now we are aware and we’ve obviously covered this several times on this station, the Home Affairs Ministry had tried its best to try and bring the warring factions together and to respect the earlier High Court Order that property be shared. Now does this Operational Order not throw all that into the bin, so to speak?

Mutsekwa: In actual fact I am completely surprised that an officer commanding of a province would issue such kind of Operational Order. I’ll tell you why – only last week this particular issue was the subject of immense debate in government – and when I say government I’m talking about the Cabinet and thereafter I had a very detailed discussion with the Commissioner General of Police, Commissioner Augustine Chihuri and the two of us, and that was only last week, and the two of us agreed that there is a Judgement that is in place and that Judgement which is to be followed by everybody. 

That Judgement was issued by Justice Rita Makarau who is Judge President in Zimbabwe and Commissioner Chihuri and myself agreed that what is legal at the moment is that the two factions of Anglican Church would use the same premises but share the time. This is the common understanding, in terms of the Ministry’s understanding, this is also the common understanding that I thought I drew from the Commissioner General of Police. And the Commissioner General of Police is supposed to be above all his police commanders. 

Guma: So what does it mean then when you have a situation where the Commissioner of Police says one thing and then his officers below, like in this case, the Officer commanding Harare does the exact opposite? Are they not playing games? 

Mutsekwa: Well it is very possible, it is very possible that they could be playing games but the fact of the matter is, whether they are playing games or not, they know the truth and the truth as discussed between myself and Commissioner General Chihuri is that the Order that is binding, the High Court Order that is binding is that one which was issued by Justice Makarau. So that is a fact. 

What they do on the ground in terms of their operation is a different issue but obviously that now attracting what kind of personalities we are dealing with. But I’m deeply saddened and disturbed that an order like that could be issued but however to get to your question of what then, what then is the next thing forward is that I also want to tell you that government in its own wisdom is quite ceased with this issue and what we have decided as government is that we have now deployed, as government, our National Healing Ministers to intervene in this issue because as you can see it is now a question of who wants to do what and people have completely disregarded what our Courts have said. 

So we think as a government, it’s a government of national unity and we do everything in consensus, we have now deployed the National Healing organ to now intervene and very soon we should be getting a report from them. 

Guma: Is not the most straightforward solution for the Courts to finalise the matter because the earlier Judgement had said they must share property until the matter is fully resolved. Why doesn’t this happen? Why don’t the Courts in Zimbabwe deal with this matter and get it over and done with?

Mutsekwa: You know you I am equally surprised and I totally agree with you the best solution is for the Courts to finalise this but as you know, I am a member of the Executive and we believe in total separation of powers, that’s an issue now that has got to be dealt with another arm of government which is the judiciary and we don’t interfere as an Executive but I totally agree with you. 

I’ve said this, in fact if you ask my Cabinet colleagues in Zimbabwe they will tell you that is my position, I’ve advocated for this, I’ve made this argument in Cabinet, I’ve said the only people or the only arm of government that can save us from this embarrassment is another arm of government which is the judiciary. But as I’ve said earlier on, there are separation of powers, I’m a member of the Executive and will not belong the judiciary unfortunately. 

Guma: Last week we interviewed Bishop Chad Gandiya the Bishop of Harare and he spoke at length about the on-going and continuing harassment from the police, he spoke about riot police tear gassing their parishioners in different parts of Harare, they are still not being allowed access to the churches. What’s your reaction to this ongoing saga because it doesn’t seem to be coming to an end, at least in as far as protection of the parishioners is concerned? 

Mutsekwa: You know apparently we, if, I as Minister of Home Affairs at times I’m caught between hard rock and, or hard ground and rock. Just last week, I heard some reports emanating from Bishop’s Kunonga’s faction that the Bishop Gandiya parishioners led by Honourable Ministers in our government who apparently belong to the MDC or to the MDC party, led riotous youths who pulled Bishop Kunonga out of the pulpit and etcetera, etcetera, etcetera and so forth and so on. 

So we are getting counter accusations and counter accusations from both factions but clearly, what I want to state categorically is I have had meetings with sober senior members of the police and everybody that I’ve spoken to have expressed their complete disgust about what is taking place at the moment. In actual fact to them, it has completely damaged the image and professionalism of the Zimbabwe Republic Police – this Anglican saga. 

But what you know goes on the ground thereafter and how they operationalise some of these issues is a question apparently that the Constitution allows them to do so at times, as the Minister of Home Affairs I give general direction, or a general directive, policy directive to the Zimbabwe Republic Police as well as other departments that fall under my Ministry but there are the foot soldiers who are on ground every day and it is very difficult for me to have eyes both in, I mean in the front and at the back. 

So at times things happen and only I know that they have happened not as they are but only after it has taken place, but I’m disgusted, completely disgusted about these developments that somebody sees it fit to put it on paper and call it an Operational Order basing on issues or basing his thoughts or his background on a matter that people know that it is against the ruling of the Courts of Zimbabwe. So I’m completely surprised but disgusted as well. 

Guma: Still at cabinet level Minister Mutsekwa is it not possible for Cabinet to issue a directive for this matter to be handled in a particular way because surely, Cabinet is in a sense a supreme decision-making body as far as government issues are concerned and direction can come from there because I’m sure the Attorney General himself is also a member of that body?

Mutsekwa: Well unfortunately one thing that I’m not at liberty to talk about is the discussions that go on in Cabinet. I think I only hinted to you that as government we are concerned about this issue but also I want you to be mindful of the fact that Cabinet, which is government has got completely, has got to make sure that there is complete separation of powers, between the judiciary and ourselves as Executive. The matter is now live in Court and it is only the judiciary that can help us out of this mess but there is nothing that we can do as an Executive or in government to direct the judiciary of what they must do and I hope you know that is universal. 

Guma: Final question for you Minister Mutsekwa, ah in as far as politics related to this matter is concerned, Bishop Bakare alluded to this in his article saying that perhaps there was a feeling within ZANU PF that the Anglican Church represents the United Kingdom and England in a sense and backing Kunonga in this way was at least one way of hitting back at the so-called former colonial power. Do you think a bit of this saga has a bit of that where certain elements in ZANU PF are finding a way or a platform in which to vent their anger at the British?

Mutsekwa: I wouldn’t rule out that possibility but what I know for a fact is that the generality of people in ZANU PF regard the (Bishop) Gandiya faction as a faction that supports homosexuality and you are aware, I know it for a fact and I totally know it is not a fact, I’m merely stating so because that is part of their belief and you are also aware that sometime back the president of Zimbabwe, President Mugabe has actually declared homosexuals as worse than dogs. So at times when the police or any other people act in that direction which is unlawful, their belief is that they are acting in support of the President’s statements and I think this is all part of the problem.

Guma: That is the Home Affairs Minister, Mr. Giles Mutsekwa joining us here on SW Radio Africa. Mr Mutsekwa, thank you very much for spending time to talk to us. 

Mutsekwa: Thank you very much.

Behind the Headlines is a weekly programme broadcast every Thursday on SW Radio Africa, Zimbabwe’s Independent Voice. To get in touch with the Producer/Presenter Lance Guma you can e-mail [email protected]. To listen to SW Radio Africa broadcasts tune in to Short Wave 4880 KHz, 7-9pm every day.

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