Film maker Xoliswa Sithole on BTH
SW Radio Africa journalist Lance Guma speaks to award winning film maker Xoliswa Sithole, who spent 9 months in Zimbabwe filming children growing up without an education, while grappling with poverty and starvation.
The children are either orphaned by AIDS or caring for parents sick with the disease. Sithole admits to being a child of ZANU PF all her life but says she no longer supports them. What has been the feedback to the heart wrenching footage in the film; Zimbabwe’s Forgotten Children which was broadcast by the BBC last week?
Interview broadcast 04 March 2010
Lance Guma: Hello Zimbabwe and welcome to another edition of Behind the Headlines. Award winning film maker Xoliswa Sithole produced a documentary Zimbabwe Forgotten Children which alerted the world to the daily struggles of young children mostly orphans battling to survive in Zimbabwe. On the programme today is Xoliswa joining us. Heart wrenching documentary Xoliswa what motivated you to go into Zimbabwe and produce it?
Xoliswa Sithole: I was raised in Zimbabwe. I’m very much a Zimbabwean as I am South African. My background is that my mother went to Zimbabwe when I was 3 years old. She married into the Sithole family, the Sithole’s raised me, so I’m very much a Zimbabwean as I am a South African and Zimbabwe as a country gave me refuge and my mother and Zimbabwe as a country created who I am. I was raised ZANU cause my mother married into the Sithole family, so Edson Sithole was my cousin, cause you know as I was saying my mother was married into that family, a very small family from Chipinge so I was raised in that family.
I was raised ZANU and I have always been ZANU and I was actually trying to make a film from 2005 to actually look at Zimbabwe through my eyes from 1970 when I came into the country to now trying to understand why Zimbabwe is where its at. Trying to not be reductionist about Zimbabwe the way I feel the media is often times. But whilst I was making my film I think for me what happened was the whole Operation Murambatsvina, (sighs) was something that I felt was very ugly and very senseless and I toyed with the idea because I make films about women and children mainly.
And then you know one day I just woke up and said you know what I am a documentary film maker this is going on, I know it is going on and I’m just going to go ahead and actually make this film regardless of whether I rub people the wrong way, but I felt that I needed to tell the story because you know that when economies crumble children always bear the brunt and if we are always talking about how children are the future of the world or of countries why are we not safeguarding the interests of our children? And Zimbabwe, to be quite honest is something that happens all over the world, children in plight.
Guma: This brings us to the question Xoliswa, we know the iron fisted way in which the media space is controlled in Zimbabwe. How where you able to go in and produce this?
Sithole: You know what it wasn’t a problem, because with all due respect I had permission to make a documentary about looking at Zimbabwe from 1970 to now and (George) Charamba had given me permission and Charamba is a friend of mine and I hope after some time we will still be able to break bread. So Charamba was very good in terms of saying Xoliswa you can make a film, just tell the truth, cause I went to him and said look Charamba I don’t want to make a film that is pro-ZANU, I want to make a very balanced story of what’s happening in this country and he gave me permission.
But then the whole thing about children kept on coming up, coming up. And I ended up doing this film as well. And so, yes I know people say to me how can Charamba be your friend, but Charamba I went to University with him, we spar a lot me and him, you know on an intellectual level and I’m honest when I tell him that you guys have really, really messed up on ABCDE and you know he has always been open with me. So having permission to make a film on Zimbabwe was never a problem. It really wasn’t the kind of film that initially I had set out to make but you know what I’m an artist I just felt I needed to tell the story.
Yes the story has come out in 2010. The story could have come up in 2006. I was resisting making this kind of film but at some point I just felt that you know what let me just do it there will be consequences from some of my comrades in ZANU. I am not ZANU anymore because I told Charamba last time that I just actually can’t support this anymore what’s was going on but I was ZANU for a very-very long time probably very recently which I know comes as a surprise to you and to many people but it was that thing of feeling that you know I was raised ZANU. I felt ZANU liberated me, educated me so I really-really battled, I didn’t want to throw away the baby, the bucket and the water and I still don’t want to do that. But last time I had a meeting with him, I said you know what, I said I cant, this is not going anywhere.
Guma: Now Xoliswa I’m obviously assuming everyone has watched the documentary there will be some who have not. Could you just quickly summarize what 3 stories you were following in terms of the film that you produced?
Sithole: I followed a story about Obert, a guy who lives with his grandmother and he wants to go to school and is very poor and but he actually can’t afford to go to school but I never set out to make a film about children not going to school that is how the documentary panned out. We just wanted to highlight the plight of children in Zimbabwe but somehow a documentary is like a child. You can have a child and say to yourself I want my child to be a doctor but hey your child might say hey I want to be a monk and go and live in Butan and you can’t stop that.
So that’s actually what happened. So it’s about a child in the rural areas who lives with his grandmother ,is an orphan and he takes care of his grandmother, they are very poor and he wants to go to school, he can’t afford to go to school. Then there is Grace and Michelle, two girls who live with their dad and the dad collects bones because you know bones are used for ash, you know for whitening sugar, so they collect bones in rubbish dumps and part of why they do that is because then they can raise money to go to school and they still can’t do that.
And then there is Esther whose mother is dying of HIV and AIDS so she has to take care of her mother and younger sister and so you know Esther also doesn’t go to school and its also Esther’s mother who ended being in that situation because of Murambatsvina, because she was displaced, so they ended up being far away, no schools, no hospitals and it was also showing the devastating effects of the whole Murambatsvina Operation.
But you see I was also very clear in wanting to make a film that was going to highlight the problems that children are facing without actually making a film where I’m saying Mugabe Must Go because that was not what the film was about. And also when I set out to make this film I was also very clear that I would have editorial control. I didn’t care who got the film whether it was the BBC or whoever because obviously I always had access into Zimbabwe so people were approaching me for the longest time to make it and I kept on turning them down turning, turning them down.
So eventually I said okay I will make this film but it will go to whoever allows me 100 percent editorial control. So the film does not say anything bad about Mugabe because I also know that the media want to latch onto that. I’m a firm believer, that Zimbabwe’s problems are also a collective thing. To blame one person is irresponsible, we are all collectively to blame when it comes to the situation in Zimbabwe.
Guma: You were very emotional Xoliswa at times during your narrations in the film how was it for you in terms of you coping with what you were seeing?
Sithole: (sighs) You know I make films, this is what I do and Zimbabwe is not a poor country. On one level there is gratuitous conspicuous consumerism that’s going on in that country and on another level someone can’t pay US$2 to go to school and you know Obert, that boy is bright, you know that boy is so bright he could actually be the future president of Zimbabwe or the future Minister of Finance in Zimbabwe and I personally I’m politically left, so I don’t believe that in any given society you should have situations whereby medical healthcare cannot be affordable, children cannot go to school, that is wrong. Whether it is in America, Zimbabwe, Pakistan, Sudan there is something morally wrong about having a society where children would have to….
Because what is gonna happen right is that you got a whole generation of children, thousands and thousands of children who can’t go to school and that is the same generation that 20 years from now are actually going to be a social problem in our societies and we know its happening, we know that, maybe we don’t know how bad it is, we know its happening, so what are we doing about it? And I know there are people who are doing something about it. I don’t think what I did was great. It was just a tiny drop in the ocean. I missed people who are really-really trying to change things for the better in Zimbabwe or in the world.
Guma: The documentary has clearly spurred people into action as you are saying. I know thousands if not millions have been motivated into wanting to help, how can they do this?
Sithole: You know what we work, obviously I was also helped by certain NGO’s to make this film, so those NGO’s will get the money and my desire is for all the children in that film to go to good boarding schools. You know the same company that I work with, we made a documentary called orphans of Inkandla in South Africa in 2005 and that documentary raised millions and millions. It was used by Elton John to raise money for ARV treatment for babies in Kenya.
It was used, a clip of it was used by Richard Curtis who started Make Poverty World History to raise money and so the children and orphans of Inkandla enough money was raised, some of them houses were built for them and one of them is actually going to university now, all that money is actually…So I’m hoping that with this film someone very wealthy will build a school for Obert’s school but I would like the children in the film, all of them to go to good boarding schools and those who don’t have homes, maybe a little house can be built, its possible, its do-able, we did it with Orphans of Inkandla in 2005.
Guma: What sort of feedback have you been getting about the documentary? Let me just quote one pro-Zanu PF website. They are accusing you of exploiting vulnerable children and families to make the film. So answer that criticism and also maybe just tell our listeners what else people are saying to you.
Sithole: That was going to happen. That comes with the territory do you know what I mean? Of course I don’t know, handiti unoziva chi shona, kana munhu akapfura pamusha handiti imbwa inofanirwa kuhukura, kuti pane munhu apfura pamusha, saka zvinhu zvanga zvichangoitika (you know in Shona we say if someone passes by the house the dogs have to bark to alert you that someone has passed) and its something that I knew was going to happen and you know what let people watch the film and let people decide. You know I’m not bothered actually about that.
Unfortunately when people react like that they are only making me famous for nothing (laughs) and I don’t really warrant that sort of….I’m a film maker chief, there are people who are really doing more important work than I am, teachers, nurses all of these unsung heroes. So the more people bark the more they are actually making me famous and everyone is going to want to watch the film.
So inini (me) if I was ZANU, you know what I’m trying to say, I would engage with me, do you know what I’m trying to say, dziriko shamwari dzangu vanana Charamba (I have friends like Charamba) although he might belie me now, but yah he is my friend, anogona kuti (he can say) you know Xoliswa, zvawakaita izvi (what you did here) we are not happy with it but you know they can actually turn it to their favour that yes they actually gave her permission to do this, we have never denied that we actually have problems. Maybe what was missing in her documentary was ABCDE because people who are also responding maybe also from Zimbabwe, they haven’t watched the film.
I even say complimentary things about Mugabe in that film. That Mugabe educated me, that Mugabe tried to do ABCDE, you know what I’m trying to say. I just think kuti (that) there is the adage no publicity is bad publicity. So off course they will say that I exploited children, off course they will say that, you know what I’m trying to say. I just think people are in denial, that’s what denial does, you know what I’m trying to say, you don’t want to actually, because the film is about children. So it’s an indictment on all of us, that how did we let things go so bad? Cause that’s really what it is.
Guma: Now Xoliswa I have already indicated to you we have already spoken to the Education Minister David Coltart, asked him to watch the documentary so I’m hoping by the time I interview him he will have watched the documentary. I’d like to ask you as someone who saw first hand the daily struggles of these children and families what do you think the government should be doing to help the situation?
Sithole: You know what my dear the government knows what it should be doing. See when people watch these things we must also be honest with ourselves, you know it’s about bringing images into our living rooms that makes us….these things have been happening in Zimbabwe for a long time. There are a lot of other things that have been happening in Zimbabwe that are wrong that even some of my friends in ZANU will say yah, you know, but it wont be admitted publicly. What the government should do, I don’t have answers for that cause guess what, the government is broke. This problem is just one of the many problems that Zimbabwe is facing.
Guma: Is it not an issue of priorities. Let me give you one example. Last year the coalition government spent US$28 million on foreign travel, um surely that’s a lot of money.
Sithole: I think the priority unfortunately, US$28 million on traveling, the whole government, no I don’t know if it’s a lot of money. My problem with Zimbabwe is that a lot of money has been siphoned into the securities industry. So whether it is the army, whether it is the police, whether it’s the excessive securities industry and we need to ask ourselves why? Why is a lot of money being channeled into the securities, maybe to keep people quiet, because that actually requires a lot of money and Zimbabwe actually as a country is actually under no threat in terms of wanting to prop up the army and the securities within the SADC region.
So I think that a lot of money is being spent there but the reality is that the money…the government is bust in Zimbabwe. So how are things going to get better on an average level its not only education it is health, it is housing, its kick starting the economy, its giving people jobs, how is that going to work, I think that is where the priorities lie. Whether the coalition government is going to work out or figure those things out I honestly don’t know. I don’t want to be an ambassador of doom and gloom because that’s certainly not what I’m trying to do.
I want to see, ever since you asked why I did this, I’m passionate about Zimbabwe, because Zimbabwe is so misunderstood, we all benefited from a lot of things that ZANU tried to put in place whether it was the first ten years or whatever and so how do we then say okay fine this has really-really gone wrong, this has gone belly up and how do we address that? So I really don’t know. I just think priorities really need to shift, yes you are right but I also think there needs to be a serious shake up within the political make up and the dialogue and the machinations of how ZANU is operating.
I was saying to (George) Charamba, the problem with Zanu PF is that you have failed to evolve as a political party. You look at a party like FRELIMO (ruling party in Mozambique). FRELIMO started out in the same way as Zanu PF but FRELIMO after some time evolved to being pro-business, pro investment, pro this, pro that and Zanu PF is still stuck in that cold war period. And I was saying to him I am no longer part of Zanu because actually people like us would have never had space in there, you should have evolved with the times.
And also unfortunately Zanu is synonymous with Robert Mugabe, it shouldn’t be like that. Zanu PF should be independent of Robert Mugabe. So at the end of the day if Mugabe is becoming a liability to Zanu PF then someone must be in there to change the whole make up and now I don’t know if they have the opportunity to do that, I don’t think so personally, but I think that, that was their downfall as a political party they failed to evolve with the times.
Guma: Final question for you Xoliswa, you spent almost 9 months filming this documentary was there ever a point where you were worried about your security?
Sithole: Ah you know what we had equipment stolen. There is a guy that we…we don’t talk about it but there was a guy who came to us and said he was CIO (Central Intelligence Organisation). We were stopped, we were harassed all the time, that’s the honest truth you know. Even if you have a paper you always had to talk your way out of it. Then this guy, you know, he stopped us, showed me a card and said he was working in the Vice Presidents office, said his name and then he said what you are doing is wrong, you are filming these kids, for what purposes and it was very-very scary and very dicey, I think he was a crook and you know our equipment and everything was stolen.
Off course I was afraid for my safety but actually at the same time, inini ndine vadzimu vakasimba ikoko ku Zimbabwe (I have very strong ancestral spirits there in Zimbabwe) much as people now say ah but you are South African but you are claiming to be, no, I was brought up by the Sithole family, I carry their name. I have done all the rituals that are done kuti mwana apinzwe mu-family (so that the child is brought into the family).
So ivavo vadzimu vekwa Sithole ivavo ndivo vakandi protector kuti ndiite zvandaita mu Zimbabwe (So the Sithole ancestral spirits protected me in Zimbabwe. I’m very-very divinely protected. I’ve always known that about myself, I’m divinely protected and so at some given point I never, off course I was scared but I always knew that if I’m meant to make this film, I will make the film and I will get out of Zimbabwe. And you know what people can get ugly now but only history will be the judge of that and I know in time I will be breaking bread with some of the very friends that are not happy with the film. I had to do that, I’m an artist, that’s what I do.
Guma: That’s award winning film maker Xoliswa Sithole who produced a documentary Zimbabwe’s forgotten children. Xoliswa thank you so much for sparing time to talk to us.
Sithole: (laughs…) I talk a lot hey, I talk a lot, I’m sure you wanted to ask me so many questions but I talk a lot.
Guma: (laughs back…) thank you so much for joining us
Sithole: Okay great, ok bye-bye.
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