US Ambassador James McGee on Hot Seat

SW Radio Africa Transcript

Hot Seat : Violet Gonda interviews outgoing US ambassador to Zimbabwe , James McGee . He says America has not seen enough changes in Zimbabwe to remove the targeted sanctions and that the country will not receive full developmental aid until issues such as the appointments of RBZ governor Gideon Gono and Attorney General Johannes Tomana are resolved. McGee says: “Things that need to be done to remove sanctions don’t cost any money. All it costs is political goodwill.”

Broadcast: 19 June 2009

Violet Gonda: James McGee the outgoing US ambassador to Zimbabwe is my guest on the programme Hot Seat. How are you Ambassador McGee?

James McGee : Very good Violet, thank you.

GONDA: Let’s start with your overview of where Zimbabwe is at present.

McGee: Violet we have made tremendous progress. As a matter of fact I was in meetings yesterday and just reminiscing about where we were a year ago. Things in Zimbabwe have changed so much in that last year I think no-one would believe on June 18 th 2008 that we would have a unity government, that we would have

Morgan Tsvangirai as the Prime Minister of Zimbabwe, Tendai Biti as the Minister of Finance. Things have really changed in Zimbabwe but that’s not to say Violet that everything is going well in Zimbabwe . We still have a lot of challenges that need to be overcome, we still have a lot of people who don’t want to see a change in the status quo. No doubt we have people of goodwill who are working to move in the right direction.

GONDA: Now can you be more specific though on what changes you have actually seen and what are some of these challenges that you mentioned – that we still have quite a lot of challenges ahead of us?

McGee: Violet I think the most positive changes that we’ve seen are in the financial area. We were talking about hyper-inflation with numbers in the quadrillions of percentage, percentage points, figures I’ve never even heard of before and that’s changed. As a matter of fact over the last two months we’ve had negative inflation here in Zimbabwe . Now that’s very, very positive. The economy has been dollarised, or in many cases pula or rand are being used and that’s a positive change. Store shelves are stocked, we’re starting to see the rebirth of the retail industry here in Zimbabwe . So those are some very, very positive changes. Revenue streams for the government are improving. On the negative side we still see the illegal farm invasions although part of the government had said they would stop these activities, they still continue. Political activists are being hassled and harried. The judicial system is still not working to meet the needs of the people of Zimbabwe , so there are major challenges out there.

GONDA: I will talk to you a bit more about what is happening on the farms and the political arrests but I just wanted to get your comments first about Prime Minister Morgan Tsvangirai’s recent trip to the US. Now as the representative of President Obama what is the perception of White House, or rather, what is the US government’s impression of Mr Tsvangirai?

McGee: Well we thought that Morgan Tsvangirai’s visit to the United States was a very successful visit. He came in, he had very successful and fruitful talks with Secretary of State Hillary Clinton and with President Obama himself and it was an opportunity for the Prime Minister to pass his impressions on to the leadership in the United States of how things were going in Zimbabwe, where we could assist and be of potential assistance to Zimbabwe in its effort to move toward free and fair elections after the constitutional process is completed in this country. At the same time, our leadership was able to pass on to Prime Minister Tsvangirai the exact reality of where we are in our relationship with Zimbabwe and how far we could go. So I think right now we have a clear understanding on both sides of where we are in this relationship and what to expect in the future.

GONDA: So where are you now in this relationship and where do you think you can assist?

McGee: We are still in a wait and see mode. Now I say wait and see and that’s a partial wait and see because we still continue to provide a massive, and I use the word massive amount of assistance to Zimbabwe . I think the last time we talked Violet I talked about how we’d given over 250 million dollars last year to Zimbabwe . This year those figures will be at least that much and possibly even more. And this is all in humanitarian food and medical assistance to the country of Zimbabwe . We’re looking to make certain that the people of Zimbabwe don’t starve, that they have the medications especially in the HIV and Aids field necessary to deal with the pandemic that’s struck here in Zimbabwe . We’re also looking at creative ways to move forward and assisting the government. Now what we cannot do, it’s against US law, we cannot pay civil service salaries. In Zimbabwe, South Africa or any other country in the world as far as that goes, so this is nothing against Zimbabwe, it’s just against the US law for us to pay those types of stipends.

GONDA: I understand that the humanitarian assistance is not going to go through the coalition government but through specific groups. Now how is this humanitarian support implemented at ground level if you’re going to bypass the government of national unity?

McGee: Well this is nothing new Violet. We’ve always used implementing partners on the ground here in Zimbabwe and in many other countries. It’s very rare that we ever, ever give any type of assistance directly to a government. History has proven that that creates problems, so we work through NGOs typically. We work through some civic organisations within the country but mainly through NGOs. And we set up operating schemes, we set up contracts with these folks on what they have to do, how they’re to be paid and how they have to report on the goods and where they’re received, who receives them. We have extensive reporting requirements that we can go back and check to ensure that the donor assistance that’s going to Zimbabwe or any other country is actually reaching the intended recipients.

GONDA: So who are the beneficiaries?

McGee: The beneficiaries are the people of Zimbabwe . The government itself I think Prime Minister Tsvangirai just used a figure that Zimbabwe will have a shortfall of about 600 thousand tonnes of grain, of maize this year. I forget the exact figure on wheat but again it’s in the hundreds of thousands of tonnes of wheat that this country will have shortfall. The people of Zimbabwe again are going to be hungry and we’re hoping to be able to step in and alleviate much of that hunger through the programmes that we have on the ground in Zimbabwe .

GONDA: Now the reason I was asking that question is because it’s been said that some donors have been targeting particular groups for aid, whether it’s in the health sector, even helping paying doctors or teachers and that not all sectors are getting this and so my question is how does this auger with the process of national healing and cohesion in your view?

McGee: I can’t speak to what other governments are doing, I can only speak to what the United States government is doing Violet and that’s because I’m just not certain what other governments are doing – but as far as the United States government is concerned, our assistance is across the board. We do not withhold assistance to anyone based upon their political party or who they voted for, nothing like that, that’s just not the way the United States government operates. If you show a need, if you show that you need assistance, we’re more than happy to provide that assistance.

GONDA: Can there ever be full developmental aid if outstanding issues like the appointment of the reserve bank governor Gideon Gono or the attorney general Johannes Tomana remain unresolved?

McGee: No. We have put out the principles under which we will move back into full development assistance and these are the principles as enunciated back in 2007 and we still want to see positive movement, positive and verifiable movement on these principles. Now once that happens then we’re willing to look at rapidly restarting our development assistance programme.

GONDA: The MDC says there’s no generalised violence in the country at present, just isolated incidents, but it also appears that the new government has agreed that there are no fresh farm invasions that are taking place right now but earlier on you actually said there are illegal farm invasions carrying on. And there were reports quoting some Zanu-PF Ministers recently saying that all the remaining white farmers should be chucked off their farms. What is the US attitude towards this?

McGee: The US attitude is this – this is a rule of law issue. The land redistribution issue is a very strong issue here in Zimbabwe , it’s an emotional issue, it’s one that has to be done correctly Violet. We are not here to dictate to the people of Zimbabwe how it should be done. All we’re saying is this, do it in a way that does not ruin the agricultural sector in Zimbabwe . We all remember as recently as six, seven years ago, Zimbabwe was a net exporter of food and just as we discussed less than two minutes ago the country is now having to import food just to feed its own people. So something has gone terribly wrong along the way and the agricultural sector which used to be one of the best, maybe the second best behind South Africa in all of sub-Saharan Africa , is a total shambles. I drove from Harare to Johannesburg about a month ago and I was appalled to see the number of fields and farms just lying fallow between Harare and Beit Bridge . Of course when I crossed the border into South Africa it was like moving into a different world with all the beautiful farmland that I saw. So there is a problem with this.

GONDA: And if you could also give us some examples of what really needs to be done before, for the US to actually give full support. We mentioned the Gono/Tomana issue but what …

McGee: Those are really side issues. We not even going to put names onto those. Those are two people who have created some issues here but we’re not saying personalities have to change, what we’re saying is policies have to change. We want to see a stop to the harassment of political activists. When the government is actually giving out assistance to the people of Zimbabwe , we want to see everybody share equally in that assistance. People should not have to display their party membership card to get food assistance from the government of Zimbabwe . We want to ensure that there’s free access to education for everybody in this country, that human rights are being observed in this country, that the rule of law is being observed. I think it’s very important Violet for me to mention that I had a very prominent American businessman in town last week and he gave a speech to about 60 of the most prominent business people in Harare and he was saying that US investment is not going to come back to Zimbabwe until the rule of law is respected here. Capital is a coward is the line I think he used and people are not going to put their money where they stand to lose it. So the laws have to be the same today, tomorrow, next week, next month, next year and until businesses are sure that they will be treated in a fair and equitable manner, investment is just not going to flow back into Zimbabwe .

GONDA: Right. And is it still a major challenge for the US and even for the western world in general to come to terms with supporting a government that includes Zanu-PF, a regime that has been in isolation for the last decade?

McGee: No. We have worked with governments that are a lot worse than Zanu-PF – maybe not a lot worse, that maybe too, giving them too much credit. But no, we can work with Zanu-PF. You know Morgan Tsvangirai in his group has moved into a unity government. We think that this unity government needs to work for this country to move forward in partnership with Zanu-PF as long as long as Zanu-PF is a willing participant and not trying to undermine the efforts of this government, this unity government, we can work with them.

GONDA : So why was the Zanu-PF Minister, Walter Mzembi barred from attending the White House meeting with the Prime Minister?

McGee: You’ll have to ask the White House that. I can’t give you that answer. Let me put it this way, we are talking about the Minister of Tourism from Zimbabwe trying to dictate to the President of the United States who should come into a meeting. I’m sorry Violet, but that just doesn’t work. That would be like me coming to President Zuma and insisting that he have a meeting with me, I mean that’s foolishness.

GONDA: Is that what happened?

McGee: Again, I can’t give you exactly but I’m reacting to the press stories that I’m seeing in the press here in Zimbabwe and if they’re any way accurate, it would be the height of folly for a Minister of Tourism to insist on being included in a meeting with the President of the United States .

GONDA: But as the representative of President Obama, would you not have an idea as to why the Minister did not attend this meeting when he attended a meeting with Secretary of State, Hillary Clinton?

McGee: What I do know Violet is this, he attended meetings with the Secretary of State, he attended other meetings that were set up for him specifically. The White House sets its own agenda and it’s a very small group of people who typically get in to the White House meetings, to meet with the President. And that’s for security as well as for the ability to move the schedule along. The President has a huge schedule each and every day, it’s scheduled 30 days in advance and literally every step of the day is laid out for the President. If the White House deemed that it was not necessary for the Minister to be involved in these meetings, that was the White House’ decision. The White House did see it was necessary for Prime Minister Tsvangirai and at least two other, maybe three other people from his group to be involved in that meeting with the White House and they set that tone, they set that number.

GONDA: Do you think to some extent this ‘snub’ could mean that the White House only recognises the one half of the government represented by Mr Tsvangirai?

McGee: No, no. That’s absolutely not the case. We have said and the President has said that he’s pleased to work with the coalition government, not with the MDC faction of the government but with the coalition government, the government of national unity of Zimbabwe . So that’s exactly our position in the United States . We want to see this government of national unity work. All parties within that government of national unity have to be willing to move forward and that’s what we’re looking for.

GONDA: You’ve concluded your term, I understand that you’ve got under three weeks left?

McGee: Yes that’s correct. I’m leaving Zimbabwe in early July.

GONDA: OK, so what do you think you have achieved?

McGee : I think that we have been instrumental in helping put together this government of national unity. As I started, I’m very proud of the fact that we have been there, assisting every step along the way to show the excesses of the former regime between the two elections. The first election we were there trying to ensure that everyone had the right and the ability to vote, to participate in a free and fair election. I think that the results of that election showed that the vast majority of people did have that right. If you look at the numbers, the pure numbers of people who voted against the former administration here in Zimbabwe , it was the majority. The majority pf people voted against Zanu-PF and what that says is that they did not appreciate the policies nor practices of that party. And I think that the United States government, my embassy in particular were very instrumental in making certain that people did have that ability to get out there and vote in a free and fair election.

The other thing that I’m most, most proud of Violet is the fact that we continue to provide humanitarian assistance to the people of Zimbabwe who are in need. Despite the political differences that we had in the past and some issues that we still have even today, the people of the United States have stepped up and provided critical assistance, humanitarian assistance to the people of Zimbabwe and we will continue to do that and that makes me very, very proud.

GONDA: Do you have any regrets?

McGee: None whatsoever. I would not do one thing different.

GONDA: The US foreign policy was to achieve regime change in Zimbabwe and even the Mugabe regime has said this so many times, especially after last year’s controversial elections – do you think you have managed to do that?

McGee: Well first of all, Mr Mugabe and his folks do not determine what US foreign policy is. We have never said regime change. What we said what we want is a regime that works for the people of Zimbabwe . Our policy in no way says that we want regime change. We are not involved in that whatsoever. What we want to see is a regime that is reflective of the will of the people of Zimbabwe . Illegal regimes, regime change can be handled by the people of Zimbabwe . So that’s where we are on that issue. We’re not trying to change any regimes here in Zimbabwe nor have we tried to change any regimes here in Zimbabwe , we’re just trying to make certain that the people of Zimbabwe have the ability to express their own will.

GONDA: And of course Mr Mugabe has said that things have changed since the formation of the unity government and that you should now remove the sanctions. Your thoughts on this?

McGee: Again. Mr Mugabe does not make United States government policy. Yes, as we’ve discussed we have seen some change, we have not seen nearly enough change to even begin to think about removing the sanctions against Zimbabwe . And Violet, this is an extremely important issue. If you look at the broad based sanctions such as ZIDERA, you know ZIDERA came into place two years after Zimbabwe had pretty much been cut off from accessing loans from the international financial institutions. The reason that Zimbabwe cannot get a loan from the World Bank, from the African Development Bank or the International Monetary Fund is not because of ZIDERA but because collectively, Zimbabwe owes those three institutions over 1.5 billion – that’s a ‘b’ – billion US dollars. And those institutions, I was just in a meeting with the President of the African Development Bank last week and he was telling me that it’s illegal for the African Development Bank to extend any further loans to Zimbabwe until they service the debt under outstanding loans.

GONDA: But there are many countries that have defaulted on their loans in the past but continue to borrow. So why is Zimbabwe different?

McGee: Well I don’t think Zimbabwe is different. These other countries have made agreements with the lending institutions – the government of Zimbabwe so far has been unwilling to do so. Been unwilling to do so, so until the government of Zimbabwe sits down with the international financial institutions and works out some type of agreement that will eventually pay off their loans or seek debt relief which is a possibility, nothing is going to move forward. But it’s absolutely erroneous to say that US sanctions have stopped Zimbabwe from accessing these loans. Again, all you have to do is look at the timing and you can see that Zimbabwe lost that ability two years before ZIDERA was ever passed. As far as the individual targeted sanctions against the 208 individuals, those sanctions are not going anywhere Violet. Those sanctions will remain in place until we see absolute proof that this government is moving in the right direction.

GONDA: And what are the possibilities that the sanctions could actually be extended, with this new government in place?

McGee: President Obama has already extended for one additional year some of the sanctions on Zimbabwe . We have a requirement that the President has to extend these sanctions each year and he’s already done that. He did that two months ago. One of the first moves that he made when he was in office was to extend existing sanctions against Zimbabwe for another year. This time next year we’ll review those sanctions and see if things have changed significantly enough for us to take those sanctions away.

GONDA: Now what about Mr Tsvangirai’s comments or appeal to western governments to remove the sanctions and he actually says that the new government cannot work with the restrictions still in place. What are your views on this?

McGee: Well our views are very simple. Our sanctions, we’ve talked to the unity government, they know why the sanctions are there and we plan to keep those sanctions in place. Pure and simple. The things that need to be done to remove the sanctions don’t cost any money, all it costs is political goodwill. The rule of law, respect for human rights, those are all issues that don’t cost the government of Zimbabwe one penny and if the government of Zimbabwe moves in a positive direction on these issues, then sanctions will be taken care of, there’s no question about that.

GONDA: To what extent is the US policy on Zimbabwe co-ordinated with that of Europe ?

McGee : We talk to our friends, nations that we have friendly relations with on all types of issues but at the end of the day, the US/Zimbabwe policy is that, it’s the US/Zimbabwe policy. Our policy towards any country is reflective of the needs of the United States of America . If those needs happen to dovetail into needs of other countries, that’s fine and dandy but we are not going to create nor execute our foreign policy based on the needs of any other country.

GONDA: Right and we talked a bit about what is happening on the farms and the arrests but from your observations is there generally a spirit of tolerance now in the country as a whole?

McGee : I think overall there is. I think overall there is a spirit of tolerance, people want to see, in some cases they want to see justice, they want to see retribution, they want to be paid back for their homes that have been burned, for their crops that have been destroyed, their cattle, their livestock that have been stolen and that’s only natural. But overall I think I’m starting to see a sense of healing in Zimbabwe . People are talking. I was just reading a report yesterday where MDC people whose homes and livestock had been destroyed and stolen met with the Zanu people who had done these, who had perpetrated these acts and they’ve reached agreement on how to move forward. Now that’s positive. That’s the type of thing that we need to see happening all across the country, this sense of healing, this sense of reconciliation.

GONDA: The last time we spoke, you mentioned that you had not communicated with senior Zanu-PF officials in a long time, so what is the situation now? Are you conducting normal business with the government now, with Zanu-PF?

McGee : I have excellent access to those corridors now Violet, I’m meeting almost too often with them. No you can never meet too often with these folks. Things have changed, I am meeting with the absolute top levels in Zanu. I’m not going to pinpoint, I’m not going to get into any more specifics on that, we will not conduct our foreign policy through the media but suffice it to say that yes, those doors have opened for me.

GONDA: So if you were to give advice to Zanu-PF, what would it be?

McGee : Work towards the will of the people of Zimbabwe . Listen to the people of Zimbabwe . Meet their needs. That’s what any government, there’s no need for government if government does not meet the needs and the will of the people.

GONDA: You are leaving next month, what are you going to do from here? Are you going to go back to the military?

McGee : I’m going back to Washington . No I’m a state department employee, I work for the department of state, I’ve worked for the department of state for the last 28 years. For the next year I’m going to be working at the National Defence University in Washington DC and it’s part of the department of defence but I still remain a state department employee. I will be lecturing and doing other duties over there with a concentration on Africa .

GONDA: And will you still be involved to some extent on what is happening in Zimbabwe or you’ll disconnect yourself.

McGee: Undoubtedly. No undoubtedly, undoubtedly but not as far as policy formulation or implementation, it will be more from an academic perspective than on policy formulation or implementation.

GONDA: And finally, what are the options for the international community given your assessment of the situation in Zimbabwe right now?

McGee : I think the options are very, very clear Violet. We need to continue to provide assistance where we can to move this unity government along. SADC and the African Union have both said that Zimbabwe needs to develop a constitution, hopefully within two years and soon thereafter, hopefully within six months after that, the country should move towards free and fair elections. I think the international community just needs to try to ensure that this country moves forward towards those two worthy goals.

GONDA: Just on that time frame, I had heard and even Dr Lovemore Madhuku, the chairperson of the National Constitutional Assembly said the politicians are not planning to have elections after 18 months or two years but after five years. Would the international community support this?

McGee : You know, again at the end of the day that’s a decision for the people of Zimbabwe to make. All I can say on this is there are plenty of other countries that need assistance and Zimbabwe needs to carefully look at where it stands in respect to all the countries, not only here in Africa but around the world. We want to continue to provide assistance to Zimbabwe , but the assistance dollar is limited and those countries who show progress are going to be those countries that get the benefit of the assistance dollar whether it’s from the United States or from another donor nation.

GONDA: A final word Ambassador McGee?

McGee : The final word is I’m going to miss Zimbabwe, I’m going to miss Africa. As I mentioned to you before Violet, I’ve been here for the last 11 years of my life. I started out in 1998 serving in Abidjan , Cote d’Ivoire and since then I’ve gone on as ambassador to Swaziland and then to Madagascar and the Comoran Islands and now here to Zimbabwe and it’s been wonderful. The continent of Africa has unlimited potential, unlimited potential and I wish nothing but the best for the people of Africa .

Gonda: Ambassador James McGee, we wish you well and thank you very much for speaking on the programme Hot Seat.

McGee : Thank you Violet. Good talking to you as usual.

For comments and feedback please e-mail violet@swradioafrica.com

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